Ritual appreciation

[constance]

I've been thinking this week about this post on metafilter, which asks a simple question and in the comments section becomes a study in contrast, the ways people look at etiquette. How can I show you respect? How can you show me respect? How can I put you in your place? How can you put me in my place? And of course the most important question of all: Which fucking hand do I use to hold my fork?

I'm a big fan of etiquette -- I've got stacks of books on the topic, and I love listening to people talk about it. I don't come by my (somewhat meager) social skills naturally, see, and it makes me happy that there are basic rules I can follow to make things easier, for me and for everyone else as well. Shortcuts, you know. Things that -- so my mama, who is one of those people who's made a successful career of putting people at ease, taught me -- say, without actually spelling it out, that I have some consideration for the people around me and the world I live in, want to make things more comfortable for all of us. I'm interested, too, in an anthropological sense, in the ways people wield manners as weapons, and in the many ways people can get it wrong as they forget and misunderstand; but primarily, I'm in it so's to put some positive structure into my world.

How do you feel about it? And have you learned any manners that you'll never let go?

Comments

[laurelwood.livejournal.com]

I'm a big fan of etiquette, too. I wouldn't know what to do with a fish fork if you handed me one, but I do appreciate the niceties of manners, whether it's a timely thank-you note, the usual roundup of please, thank you, pardon me, etc., or people just using their darned turn signals.

One of my weird manners hang-ups is that if someone's introduced to me as "Mrs./Mr. _____" or by their full first name (i.e. Jennifer or Constance), I have enormous trouble addressing that person in a less formal way when I become better acquainted with them. Yet oddly, I used to prefer to have children address me by my first name, because "Mrs. _____" made me sound like my mother-in-law, but now that I've gone through this year of the kids at my school-of-employment addressing me more formally, plain old "Laurel" sounds a bit crass now when I hear it from the girls' friends.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

I'm a big fan of being respectful and considerate (eg punctual). I'm also a big fan of Miss Manner's explanation that good manners is never about embarrassing people - it's about making them, as you point out above, comfortable. So if they use the wrong fork you wouldn't point it out and might in fact use the same wrong fork so they wouldn't later realize and be embarrassed.

Specific things, hm, I can't think of any. Re what Laurel says above, I do like titles of respect - including Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss. I remember playgroup when our first kids were just starting to talk. We were all sitting around talking about how we wanted to be addressed by everyone else's children. I was the only one who wanted to teach my kid to say "Ms. such and such" rather than use first names. Everyone else was uncomfortable with the title. I think that does the kids a disservice. They need to learn how to address grownups respectfully - that much casualness causes confusion. Eh, I could go on about this forever. Sorry. : )

[treehavn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for drawing my attention to that thread. I'm reading it now and finding it fascinating. Your comment about which hand the fork goes in reminds me of the first time I ever flew on an American airline. Everything was much as it would be on a British flight (except they were more stingy with the drink), until dinner time came and everyone started this complicated procedure of fork transference. It was quite an eye-opener.

Good etiquette, as you say, is all about putting people at their ease in a very unshowy way, but also about banishing vulgarities. Have you ever read the novel Snobs (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0753820099/qid=1148634290/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/202-3408762-6858208) by Julian Fellowes? It's on this very subject, from a British class perspective, and might interest you.

[tilney.livejournal.com]

I have to say that with my Zelig personality I tend to blend in with whatever register there is around me, and I feel comfortable with people twice my age, so I don't think I stick out as the badly-behaved one. What I do tend to lack, sometimes, is in the field of 'sensitivity' as the Polish poet, Wisława Szymborska, defined it. She said 'sensitivity' has nothing to do with being maudlin, but with having antennae of sorts, directed towards the other person, which enable us to show thoughtful concentration on them. When I behave badly, it is because I become inconsiderate. This sometimes, in my case, leads to being a bit brusque and offhand. Which I hate.

Still, however, I remember till this day how I took one of my lecturers' friendly attitude for granted and used a very familiar form of address. He didn't bat an eyelid, but I my ears still burn about it and now I always prefer to stay on the safe side and maybe even come across as too formal, but.

[somniesperus.livejournal.com]

Miss Manners is my idol. Well, one of many. As Aubrem says above, it's not about which fork you use, it's about being considerate of other people (something at which I fail all to often, but I TRY). One of my favorite stories, in fact (though not from Miss M), goes thusly:

An Edwardian private was invited to dine with his superiors. A plate of ice was passed around for the gentlemen to add to their drinks. The private, confused, thought it was supposed to cool his bowl of hot soup so, very self-conscious, he took the tongs and dropped the ice cube in the soup. His commanding officer, seated next to him, saw how anxious the private was about his manners and so, being a true gentleman, also took an ice cube and added it to his soup. The private relaxed, and everyone had a lovely evening.

Beyond that, I know that you are supposed to start with the outermost fork and work your way inward. It has served me well. *g*

[tofty.livejournal.com]

When I was growing up, we kids all addressed our friends' parents and our parents' friends as "Mr./Ms. [first name]." I didn't realize until much later that for the most part the practice is purely a southern one, and that in fact most people from outside the south think it's kind of weird. And maybe it's just that it still seems natural to me--I still call my parents' friends and my friends' parents "Mr./Ms. [first name]" -- but I think this is an ideal form of address for kids. Not too formal, but still more respectful than a simple first name.

Anyway. :D

[tofty.livejournal.com]

No, going on about this is just fine! (See my response to Laurel above for my regionally-taught solution to the dilemmas of children addressing adults.) I mean, that's what I wanted, your take on stuff like this.

I'm a huge Miss Manners fan as well. I know someone who's met her and says she's kind of snotty in real life, but I have a hard time believing that, given her stance that there's no excuse for a lapse in graciousness, ever. But then again, I could just be in denial, given that my worldview puts Miss Manners in a place of honor and it would be devastating for me to have to take her off her pedestal. :)

[tofty.livejournal.com]

Neither my brother nor I practice the weird fork transferrence procedure. I'm not sure why, but neither of us ever caught on, and it wasn't until I hit my twenties that someone pointed out to us that our table manners were continental rather than gauche. What a relief! Because I only occasionally remember to do the transfer -- it just doesn't come natural-like.

It is a terrific thread, isn't it? Except that as several people point out, the part about banishing vulgarities becomes difficult once you realize that vulgarities differ from society to society. It's all very complicated! You could trip up at any time! Fascinating!

And I haven't read Snobs, but believe me, I will. This sort of thing is exactly up my street, and your comment reminded me of Nancy Mitford's Noblesse Oblige, which first addressed the question of upper-class language; I have a copy somewhere and I think I'm going to dig it out.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

One of the nice things -- some might say barbaric :D -- about English is that there're fewer things to trip you up as far as addressing people in terms of respect. I mean, we don't have formal and familiar pronouns, for example.

I was thinking that Szymborska's definition was what I would call empathy, but it's a little different, isn't it? "Thoughtful concentration" -- I like that.

And I prefer to err on the side of formality as well; I'm reserved by nature. But man, that's brought me some trouble from the school of people who think that reserved people are just being snotty. Sometimes, you can't win. 9_9

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I know which fork to use -- hell, I even know when to use a berry fork, even though I haven't actually seen a modern service that includes one -- but I was kind of startled by the vehemence with which people advocated or derided the knife/fork switch. I mean, it's never much mattered to me one way or the other, but as it happens, my brother and I have never done it unless we remember to force ourselves to do it. I'd hate to think that while we were calmly eating without switching, we were offending people across the nation. :/

I love your story! When I think of good manners, it's stories like that I think of -- the stories where a hostess will drink from her fingerbowl rather than show up a guest -- and not the stories about dowagers glaring vulgar people down.

I've mentioned before, I think, that graciousness and kindliness just ravish me. I am easily seduced, I know -- but the thing is that graciousness and kindliness are getting rarer. It makes me sad.