The apostasy of me. Or not.

[constance]

George W. Bush was in my town today, and my mind is on politics tonight.

I won't even start talking about how quickly he can make the bile rise in my throat (it's practically a Pavlovian response by now, I would think), or how his shell-game politics leave me feeling as though my intelligence has been insulted almost beyond bearing every time he opens his goddamned mouth and at the same time questioning the intelligence of all the people who lap up every word he says the way my dog licks up cat puke if he gets to it before I can. How it's taken years of... Nope, not going to talk about it any more.

Instead, I'm going to talk about a conversation I had with my father when I was in college. I was being probably unbearable and sanctimoniously liberal about something or other, and he informed me that he'd been a liberal once too, but that time and a family and a mortgage had changed his mind. That I would change my mind, too, once I entered the real world and had adult responsibilities to face.

And tonight it's nearly twenty years down the road, and undoubtedly my father would claim that I'm maintaining an unhealthy grip on my Neverlandish talent for avoidance and idealization. But the rest of the world thinks I'm toeing the line pretty well, I thank you. I have adult responsibilities now. No marriage, nor is there likely to be one, but I have a house and a car. Pets. I pay my bills on time, all of them. I'm middle-class! I go to work and pay my taxes and contribute to my 401(k) account! Hey, I even know how to punctuate 401(k)!

But I'm still a liberal. I don't think my affiliations are going to change, either. I don't feel as though I'm closing myself off from the beliefs I once held. They've become tempered by practicality, sure, and I'm more circumspect than I used to be, but I think I'm only less hotheaded now, not more reactionary. Possibly in some ways I've become more liberal, as I've become wiser and more compassionate and less self-centered over the years.

My father wasn't even ten years older than I am now when he made that pronouncement to me. Really, don't you think that if my conversion had been going to happen at all, it would surely have started happening by now? I think my father was wrong, and I won't insult him by ranting about yellow-dog democrats and lame-ass frat boys too busy drinking to know their own minds, much though I'm tempted to do so tonight, all soured as I am by insanely listening to five minutes of GWB before turning the television off.

Instead, I'm just wondering: what about you? Have you become more conservative as the years have gone by? More liberal? Have you changed in political essentials at all, as you've left your college years behind?

Comments

[gmth.livejournal.com]

I'm much more moderate now than I was in high school and college, but since I was practically an anarchist then I think I'm fitting pretty comfortably into the liberal spectrum these days. I was also told I'd get more conservative as I got older, and it was true, but considering how far to the left I was when I was younger it's not a surprise.

And not to gloat or anything, but we had Bill Clinton in my area today. :-)

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Heh, I was going to say much the same thing. I used to be more or less a communist, and now I'm middle-left liberal.

My husband, though, used to be a Republican and is now farther to the left than I am. So age doesn't aways make one more conservative.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

My husband, though, used to be a Republican and is now farther to the left than I am

That's something you don't hear about so often. Did it happen gradually? Did one particular issue change his mind about many issues? (This latter actually happened to an old friend of mine, who was a committed conservative up until a few years ago, when she got a direct taste of the Bush administration's stance on an issue which meant a great deal to her, and was so upset by the entirely predictable party-line response to her emotional plea that she ended up rethinking her whole political perspective.)

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

He attributes his perspective shift to going to college and becoming educated. I should point out that his family are Western Republicans, which is a whole different animal from the religious-right style conservatives and are probably closer to Libertarians than to the mainstream of their party.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I'm still pretty much a Socialist; a few of my leanings hae shifted a little, one way or another, since college, but not too many. Not enough to shift me very far long the spectrum from where I was twenty years ago.

I'm not a terribly big fan of Clinton, though not because I believe he's a preliterate sock-monkey. I just think he let down the side badly in his years in office. He had the potential to be a truly great progressive president, I think, and the fact that he frittered away eight years dithering and trying not to lose percentage points and covering his ass (and then, of course, uncovering it) just pisses me off.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm a huge Clinton fangirl. He did amazing things with the economy, which Bush just threw away.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I'll definitely give him the economy. A budget surplus! I wasn't sure such a thing was even possible -- and then of course Bush just pissed it all away. On fucking homeland security, among other things. Which that was money well-spent, right? -_-

[luthien.livejournal.com]

I've always been fairly left wing. Every so often, when an election rolls around, I make a concerted effort to look at the policies of all the major parties as fairly as I can, just to see if anything's changed for me, and I always end up the same: I have always been wary of any organisation that tries to tell me how to think, churches as much as political parties, and that wariness has only grown stronger with age, but my own core values, the things I believe in most strongly, especially those to do with social justice, have also never changed. At this point, when I'm relatively middle-aged, middle-class and comfortable, those things don't look like ever changing, and so I'd say I'm never going to turn into a political conservative. It's probably partly at least because at heart I've never really been any kind of conservative, partly because my partner is more left wing than I am - those copies of the selected works of Lenin on our bookshelves don't belong to me, and I'm not the one who gets misty-eyed at memories of long-ago student cooperatives that apparently demonstrated the spirit of socialism in action *g* - and also partly because I hate the miserable little conservative who's been our prime minister for the past ten years *sob* and has been at the top of my list of least favourite politicians since 1985. That hypothetical bus can't come speeding towards him quickly enough...

My brother, who is barely two years younger than I am, otoh, has become progressively more right wing as he's become older. He's now firmly politically conservative where once he was at least as left wing as I was. Funnily enough, I am the one with the partner and the mortgage, while he's the one who's single and lacking in a lot of those worldly responsibilities that influenced your father's thinking. Of course, my brother works for a merchant bank and the world of high finance is not exactly unknown to him, so possibly that has a slight influence on the way he thinks, too. *g*

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I have always been wary of any organisation that tries to tell me how to think, churches as much as political parties, and that wariness has only grown stronger with age, but my own core values, the things I believe in most strongly, especially those to do with social justice, have also never changed

This is absolutely true for me as well. :) Yay for suspicious contrarianism!

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

oh gosh, what a complicated question.

Undoubtedly I'm more conservative than I used to be but that's more in practicality than principle. My principles remain the same - I'm just a bit more wary, a bit more practical, a bit less naive.

Also, I am willing to set my principles aside for my kids at the drop of a hat - something I would never have predicted before.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

That's a really good point, about having something more important to you than principles. I think we all do, really (the fact that my parents and I try not to jeopardize our relationship by discussing politics openly is, I think, a nod in this direction), and I do think it's more likely to happen as we get older. But I suspect that when it comes to children the impulse to put aside principles for them is automatic and fierce, not especially a position deliberately taken up. ♥

[amelia-eve.livejournal.com]

I would say I have become more nuanced and pragmatic, but not really more conservative. I was raised in a pretty liberal environment, so I did not have any big left-wing conversion when I went off to college, and I never felt much need to thumb my nose at the establishment just to get a response, nor to embarass my family. Even as a teenager, I just wanted to do what I wanted to do, and I didn't seek to shock anybody.

A big contributing factor, I think, was that my father died when I was 13. He was a WWII veteran, and though he always voted Democrat and would have hated Bush (did hate Reagan, who had been our governor), there were a lot of specifics we would never have agreed on. But when my mom was suddenly left a single mother of three, she got politicized pretty quickly, especially about women's issues. Of course I am not happy that my mom went through hard times, but I think it has made it easier for her to understand my experiences as a single working woman and not to expect that things would work out if I were more mainstream.

Tofty, you don't say anything about your mother's politics. My observation is that sometimes tough times make men want to identify with a tough leader, and it hardens them and makes them less forgiving. But for women tough times more often lead to increased empathy and openness. As Aubrem says above, becoming a parent can change your values system in certain specific ways, especially toward feeling more protective. But for me, caring about children (in general; I don't have any of my own) means caring about fairness and free speech and equal rights and peace and affordable health care for everybody more than ever.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

My mother is a complicated question, politically speaking. I suspect that her official political position -- solidly right-wing -- is gleaned mostly from my father's position. She's not active politically, really, and never has been; but she is a humanist, and for this reason, I think that if you were to question her about her positions from an unbiased perspective, about social issues especially, she'd come across as being much more liberal than she would if you were just to ask her about her voting habits.

:::

for me, caring about children (in general; I don't have any of my own) means caring about fairness and free speech and equal rights and peace and affordable health care for everybody more than ever

Yes. Yes, indeed. :)

[laurelwood.livejournal.com]

I learned the hard way last night that one shouldn't go to bed directly after listening to Newt Gingrich talk. That, combined with the kind of fragmented sleep that comes with having a cold, makes for some apocalyptic nightmares. Kinda the way we all feel after listening to Bush, no?

On a much lighter note, my sister and I, as children, were asked by my grandfather to choose a political party. So, blindly, we chose, and I got the giant inflatable elephant and she got the giant inflatable donkey. The elephant was much cuter, so I lorded it over Julie with my superior republicanness for as long as the toy lasted. Since the toy popped, though, I've found myself becoming more liberal with every passing year, despite being married to a conservative. (At least he's not getting MORE conservative as I get more liberal. Makes for interesting dinner debates, anyway.)

[tofty.livejournal.com]

The elephant is much cuter, isn't it? I kind of resent the Republicans for ending up with it.

Apocalyptically nightmarish is exactly the feeling I get from listening to Bush talk. And I respect you for keeping your dinner-table debates civil! I'd like to think that I could do it, too, but about some topics -- Bush is one -- I don't feel I could rely on my innate dislike of conflict or my diplomatic skills.

[thalia]

I'm more fiscally conservative than I used to be, but I'm still toward the left of center there. Everything else, I haven't changed much, still pretty far on the left. The way the rest of the country's shifted, I think I look more liberal than I used to, even though I don't think my positions have changed.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

The way the rest of the country's shifted, I think I look more liberal than I used to

That's a very interesting point, and quite true. I only wish we were as vocal as our outspoken right-leaning counterparts, because if we were, possibly observers would not forget that America is not conserative in its entirety, only in its majority, and a narrow majority at that.

[dahlia-777.livejournal.com]

I've moved a bit to the left over the years, but not so that it makes much difference. The big shift in my politics as I've grown older has been towards cynicism, disillusion and bitterness. I've never been able to stand the Tories, but nowadays I feel vicious contempt for most politicians in the Labour party too. I doubt this will come as a surprise to anyone like you who reads my journal!

One other thing, vaguely related, is that I've become a more convinced atheist over the years. Kay Taylor told me last week to read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and it was a great rec. I got it on Sunday and it's fantastic.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I am that way, too, actually, even more disappointed in the Democratic candidates of the past few years than the Republican ones, because my expectations are so much higher. I have a suspicion that because it takes a certain amount of arrogance and entitlement and manipulation to even make it as a serious presidential contender, I won't like any of the contenders I see from here on out, so I can't vote for someone I just like a hell of a lot; and I can't trust any of them to keep their campaign promises because so many forces work against even the most idealistic candidates that I feel as though it's ridiculous of anyone to promise anything, and so it's pointless to vote on issues alone... It's a dismaying prospect, to say the least, and I have a lot of elections still to go.

I wouldn't call myself an atheist, just an agnostic, but I so sympathize with your own position. Every year I am a little further away from my Catholic upbringing, and a little more wary of people who believe.

There was a terrific interview of Dawkins last week in Salon; did you see it? I'll be glad to send it to you if you haven't and don't feel like jumping through hoops to get a day pass for the site. He's a fascinating interviewee, astringent but willing to listen to opposition and argue it point by point without being rude. (A mighty trick!) His book's been on my list since I read the interview, but I haven't gotten round to it yet.

[dahlia-777.livejournal.com]

I read the Salon interview, thanks. He's a good writer - most amusing. However, my favourite atheist polemicist remains AC Grayling, if only for his gorgeous prose style. He just wrote a terrific piece questioning why non-believers feel impelled to give religious people so much "respect". His angle is that intrinsic human attributes - race, sexuality etc - are more worthy of respect than what we choose to believe. I've split the link in two because CIF has this annoying trackback system that publicises sources linking to its posts.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk

/ac_grayling/2006/10/acgrayling.htm